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April 02, 2008

Comments

Steve Sacher

My thoughts on others' comments:

To Frank Cummings: I agree. That was a better protocol. And it worked because there were strong bonds of trust between the senators and their staffers.

To Ron Dean: I can't say that we saw a train wreck coming. What made us uneasy was that, unlike the rest of the statute which had been gesticulating since 1967 and had been vetted to within an inch of its life, here was a clearly important provision with wide-ranging implications that was never the subject of a committee hearing, never scrutinized by public media, never carefully analyzed by staff, and that on its very face had a certain Rube Goldberg disjointedness.

To Jim Wooten: You're right. I had forgotten about California's COLA initiative.

To Don Levit: To me, the answer to your question is simply that regulators tend to want to regulate everything that moves. Inside the government, turf is the coin of the realm. I'm not talking about individuals, most of whom are well motivated; I'm addressing the way tax-supported and non-profit institutions tend to behave, no matter who is at the helm.

Frank Cummings

Well, now after almost 35 intervening years we're making new legislative history? Aw, gee. Anyway, I don't remember it quite that way. But I do remember this: In those days under the Senate Rules a staff member could walk into the reporter's office and delete everything that was actually said on the floor, replacing it with the carefully scripted-in-advance colloquoy. There was nothing unusual about that. It happened every day. The rules have changed completely since then.

But I'm not sure that's a good thing. The colloquoy -- which was approved by the members in advance -- was what the members meant to say. If the actual words were a garble, which version is a better statement of what they meant to say?

Ron Dean

It proves that shortsightedness of big business and big labor (one a Missouri health plan that won the case anyway, and the other focused on some nuance of legal service plans that never got anywhere anyway) will control huge issues that greatly affect everyone who ever went to a doctor -- or prevents them from even seeing a doctor. And the amazing thing is that business and labor still have their heads stuck in the same sand of their same shortsighted self interests and refuse to acknowledge that perhaps Rome is burning and it's time to put down their fiddles.

Subject matter preemption is exactly right. Preempt on the matters you're regulating, but don't prevent someone else from putting out fires you're not interested in handling.

Steve Sacher

I am the source. I was the Labor Department lawyer.

Jim Wooten

I agree with much of what Steve Sacher says in his interesting account of the expansion of ERISA's preemption provision. But there was at least one important difference between the Senate and House bills. The House bill included the deemer clause, which was added shortly before the House passed its bill. The reasons for this addition were the trial court decision in the Monsanto case and the spat between organized labor and the American Bar Association over legal services plans. (These events are recounted on pages 235-36 of my book [The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974: A Political History].)

The deemer clause in the House bill was intended to prevent states from regulating self-insured plans. An advisory committee of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners noted in March 1974 that the deemer clause appeared to exempt benefit plans from state regulation "when the fund or plan itself is the risk bearer." So the House had already moved beyond subject-matter preemption.

The Monsanto case and the fight over legal-services plans also were factors in the conference committee's decision to further expand the scope of the preemption language. Another factor, however, was a law under consideration in California that would have required DB plans to offer cost-of-living adjustments. (See my book, pages 264-65). The Building and Construction Trades wanted broader preemption language to torpedo the California law (and other similar laws).

Don Levit

Steve:
In the Monsanto case, the company was able to escape any regulation because the plan was self-funded. The plan could not be viewed as in the business of insurance.
If the plan involved another employer, however, it would be a MEWA and thus subject to state regulation.
While states do have the ability to use any and all laws to regulate self-funded MEWAs, we do know that these entities are not in the business of insurance.
Thus, why would many states subject self-funded MEWAs to surplus and reserve requirements, as if they were in the business of insurance?
Don Levit

Roy Harmon

I have heard similar reports in the past. What are your sources for this account?

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